Gun Lawyer Episode 143
requirements, training, permit, meet, new jersey, law, required, gun, put, police, issued, firearm, evan, qualification, promulgation, folks, october, carry, misinformation, rpo
Evan Nappen, Speaker 3
Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, we’ve had some important news and that is the promulgation, what’s been called the Interim Release of the new Firearm Safety and Training Guidelines, and the Use of Force requirements for carry permit holders in New Jersey. Now, this was supposed to be released on July 1 (2023) by the State Police. Instead, they released it late on July 17. They did not meet the requirement under the statute in time. I don’t know if that will have legal significance or not. But for now, the basic viewpoint is that we’re going to need to abide by these new training requirements, which the Carry Killer Murphy anti-Civil Rights law mandated to be promulgated and put forward by the State Police.
Evan Nappen 01:34
I’m assuming these interim guidelines will then be finalized when the Administrative Code rules get finalized. Because, currently, the Administrative Code in New Jersey is completely out of date, and the out-of-date Admin Code which is loaded with all kinds of wrong information and is extremely misleading, and we’ll do an update to all these new Murphy laws, not just the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights law, that are still out there, and it’s to be in effect, I believe, until November 2023. They gave themselves an extension to promulgate all the new stuff.
Evan Nappen 01:34
But that, of course, leads to even more confusion, because the Administrative Code in many places outright conflicts with statutory law. Of course, the statutory law would take precedence over Admin Code. But nonetheless, it’s typical of New Jersey to mandate upon gun owners the most stringent requirements, most stringent of timelines, most stringent of interpretations, and then you see the Government itself run in such a slipshod way. And it’s no problem. This is what happens. It’s always one sided. But we, as gun owners, of course, have no such luxury. We have to abide by what is put out there by the authorities.
Evan Nappen 02:58
So, I want to clarify a number of things that are of great importance and that have caused enormous amounts of confusion. A lot of misinformation has been out on the internet. Can you believe that misinformation is on the internet? I know that we’re all shocked to hear that. But even misinformation being put out by the State Police themselves. I’ve been getting all kinds of information sent to me with Page – 2 – of 9
people questioning and asking about it, and we’re going to straighten out a lot of the key points today about the training requirements.
Evan Nappen 03:38
On another show, we’re going to go through their Use of Force Training Information Packet, where they attempt to explain, they being the State, attempt to explain the Use of Force, which at the moment is loaded with all kinds of mistakes. I can’t believe they put this thing out. I recently looked at the link, and the link has a 404 message. But it has a newer date, the 21st of July (2023). So, maybe by the time you hear this or a little bit later, there’ll be a new promulgation, fixing a lot of the blatant errors that I saw. On a subsequent show, we will review thoroughly what the State Police claim is the law regarding Use of Force.
Evan Nappen 04:26
On this show, I want to focus on the most immediate concerns people have, which is the new training requirements. Now keep in mind under the statute, there were three (3) things that the State Police were required to produce in order to, well frankly, create all kinds of hurdles to us exercising our Second Amendment rights. I’m just going to call it like it is because all this entire bill is a scheme to discourage, stop, and block our ability to carry. Training requirements are, of course, part of that attempt. I’m confident we’re going to see litigation over this.
Evan Nappen 05:10
But for now, what were the initial requirements that the State Police had to do? Well, by July 1, 2023, which of course, the deadline has passed, the State Police were required to establish training requirements in the lawful and safe handling and storage of firearms. It was supposed to consist of (1) an online course of instruction; (2) in person classroom instruction; and (3) target training administered by a certified firearm instructor on a firing range approved by the superintendent.
Evan Nappen 05:48
So, there are basically three elements here. One is the online course of instruction. Second, in person classroom instruction, which would focus more on Use of Force because that’s how the State Police have actually set this up. And three, the “target training”, which by the way, isn’t really target training, but rather proficiency. With shooting proficiency that is at such a level, it is, in fact, virtually the same level as required for RPOs, which are Retired Police Officers, to qualify to get a New Jersey RPO card. The RPO requirements, by the way, are founded upon what active police must do to qualify as well.
Evan Nappen 06:58
These are known in the nomenclature as HQC. There’s HQC1 and HQC2. The training requirements for us, for citizens, is now HQC(modified), which essentially is the RPO qualification. The main difference is not having to do night shooting. However, the qualification is incredibly strenuous. Because what they are requiring is that anybody who desires to exercise their Second Amendment right, their right to keep and bear arms, their right to protect themselves and defend themselves in public to get a permit, they must be able to be the same as a Retired Police Officer. In order to be an RPO, keep in mind, you have to have at least 10 years in as active police. You’ve had 10 years of firearm practice and qualification on this very course. You’re an experienced police officer. You’re now Page – 3 – of 9
taking a qualification course where you’ve been doing this and practicing this and learning this entire rigorous proficiency testing.
Evan Nappen 08:31
Now a citizen has to meet the same standard. My question is this. It’s pretty simple. I should not have to qualify as a NASCAR racer in order to get a driver’s license. I don’t need to have that skill level to be a safe driver. And you see, this is what they’re doing. They’re creating a standard that is the same standard a veteran law enforcement has had to meet for decades individually for each one. That’s what’s being imposed upon us. The shooting requires all kinds of timed fire, requires shooting even at kneeling position, etc. Things that many folks may not even be able to do that or unable physically to do. It has nothing to do with their ability to safely handle a firearm, but instead to be put through a proficiency.
Evan Nappen 09:41
Let me just say that under the Heller, the McDonald and most importantly Bruen decision, this is the kind of thing that is not legal. It is not lawful. It is unconstitutional. This type of testing is not something that the Bruen decision said was okay. They talked about safety training, that’s one thing, but not about proficiency, particularly proficiency that rises to such an extreme level as this. It’s pretty outrageous.
Evan Nappen 10:22
It really mirrors the same techniques that were used by the racist state governments after the Civil War, in trying to stop blacks from having the right to vote. They had poll taxes. You had to pay exorbitant amounts of money. By the way, this all costs big money to be able to get this training. Literacy tests, essentially literacy tests to vote. These were all found unconstitutional. Here, you’re going to have to understand this written packet of very detailed Use of Force, legalistic information that, frankly, goes above and beyond what an average citizen actually needs to know. It is not part of so-called safety training, that’s for sure. Should you know the law? Yeah, you should. Should you gain an understanding of it? Yes. But should you be denied your right to keep and bear arms if you cannot arbitrarily pass a test based on this extreme position?
Evan Nappen 11:34
Let me also mention what about someone who is illiterate? If someone is illiterate, does that mean that they cannot have the right to protect themselves because they don’t know how to read? Or because their ability to comprehend complex law means they can’t be able to tell when their life is threatened with serious bodily injury or death? Or when they might be justified in using deadly force? You don’t think that person might still be mentally capable to do so? I would strongly disagree. So, this whole situation is another tactic, another tool, to discourage the exercise of our rights.
Evan Nappen 12:23
But in New Jersey, even having the ability to carry is such an improvement, and many individuals will do what it takes to have that carry. No matter how outrageous the requirements are, they will do it. So, for those of you that are participating in this and are willing to meet these standards and are physically able to meet these standards, well, I want to make clear to you some very important things about how this works. Page – 4 – of 9
Evan Nappen 12:58
I received a letter that I think summarizes what a lot of people are thinking and saying. So, let me start with that. Hi, Evan. I listen to your podcast all the time. You’re doing a great job educating us on NJ law and helping us navigate the many landmines our legislators have laid out for us. I have a question regarding HQC2(modified). I had not heard about this new training/qualification requirement until this morning. I already have my Permit to Carry. Do you know if HQC2 will require PTC holders to re-qualify or if this would only come up on renewal? Thank you in advance for considering this question, Dave.
Evan Nappen 13:50
Well, that is an important question. It is a question that has been raised, and there is an onslaught of misinformation about. So, let me give you the definitive explanation of who the new training requirements apply to and who they do not apply to. Here’s the deal, folks, and I’m going to be really clear about this.
Evan Nappen 14:24
A person who obtained a New Jersey Permit to Carry a handgun and whose permit does not expire before December 22 of 2023. Okay, typically, those whose permit was issued after December 22, 2021, folks. December 22, 2021. Not as many people have been seeing December 22 in 2022. A person who obtained a New Jersey Permit to Carry a handgun whose permit does not expire before December 22, 2023, which would mean, typically those whose permit was issued after December 22, 2021, shall comply with the new training requirements no later than October 1, 2023. If you have such a permit, you fall under that. If a permit was issued after December 22, 2021, then you’re required to comply with the new regulations, meaning having to get the new certification that you meet this new training. Your failure to do that, we’re going to discuss in the second half of the show. But you need to do this, and you have to get it done by October 1 (2023).
Evan Nappen 16:07
Let me expand further about some various exemptions to this. Some individuals may not fall under this, and some things you may find surprising under this. But the basic rule, I just want to get through everybody’s head. The basic rule is it’s applying to permits that were issued after December 22, 2021, not December 22, 2022.
Evan Nappen 16:36
Now, this does not apply, this mandate to have the new training does not apply to a person who obtained a New Jersey Permit to Carry a handgun after July 1, 2023. That’s right, if your Permit actually was issued after July 1, 2023, because of how the law reads and because the State Police didn’t promulgate in a timely manner, this doesn’t apply to those people that had a permit issued after July 1, 2023. It will only apply to those people upon the renewal of their permit. So, they don’t have to complete anything by October 1, 2023, if they’re in that small class of people that actually had permits issued after July 1, 2023. The law only applies to those that had permits issued prior, meaning for them to have to get recertified by October 1, 2023. So, if you’re in that small class of folks after July 1, 2023, then you’ll only have to do this training upon renewal. Page – 5 – of 9
Evan Nappen 18:05
You will have to meet the new training requirements if you haven’t already done them. It is possible that somebody who got a permit after July 1, 2023, and in fact, completed the new training requirements. Then this, of course, doesn’t apply to you, either, because you’ve met the new requirements. You will not have to recertify on the renewal, because you’ll be covered, and you can take advantage of that. But if you fall into that class, where you didn’t meet the new training requirements, but you’re still not required to recertify by October 1, 2023, then on your renewal, you are going to have to do the recertification. Of course, new applications, any new applications, they have to meet the new training requirements.
Evan Nappen 19:12
Now, there’s another interesting little factor here that you may find confusing. I’m going to try to make it clear for most people whose permit was issued before December 22, 2021. So, if the permit was issued before December 22 of 2021, the period is two years. You have a two-year permit, which means it will expire before December 22, 2023. Meaning they don’t have to comply with the October 1, 2023, re-certification deadline. They will have to comply on their renewal, but they don’t have to meet that if they had a permit that was issued before 12/22/21.
Evan Nappen 20:12
New Jersey Permit to Carry a handgun applications that were submitted before December 22, 2022, were all judged issued. They’re all judge issued unless they got remanded to the chief or superintendent after the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights became law, which some of them may have been. On rare occasions, a judge may have forced someone’s permit to expire sooner or renew sooner. This could be found where someone may have been infirmed or older. So, those folks now face a different situation.
Evan Nappen 20:55
Now further note that there’s been this rampant misinformation. And you’re seeing this, where it’s being alleged that permits granted before December 21 of 2022 are universally exempt. That is flat out wrong. It’s inaccurate. I hope I’ve made it clear to you how this deadline works. I know it’s confusing. But I just want you to keep in mind the basic rule. If your permit was issued after December 22, 2021, then it is virtually assured, except for a few minor exceptions of those folks that got it after July 1 of 2023. So, it’s basically going to be that just about everybody must comply with those new training requirements no later than October 1, 2023.
Evan Nappen 22:03
So, October 1 is the deadline to get recertified so that your permit remains valid, and you remain qualified under the statute. That is very important. And I wanted to clarify that because of the misinformation that is out there in the ether, and I’m getting all kinds of questions about it.
Evan Nappen 22:33
Now, let me also point out, and it is important to do so, that I have great sponsors of the Gun Lawyer podcast. One of those sponsors is WeShoot, and this is really interesting. WeShoot has done firearm training and permit certification. They’ve been doing this for a number of years, and it’s important. If you Page – 6 – of 9
got your training at WeShoot, their training actually met or exceeded the new training requirements. Therefore, WeShoot students who took the USCCA NJ Carry Class will not be required to re-qualify because you’ve actually met the standards, and you can get your certification from them that you’ve met it. You don’t have to take the course because you’ve already actually met the standard. WeShoot utilized the course of the HQC2 (modified) and actually exceeded the requirements. So, if you got your training at our sponsor, WeShoot, then you’re actually covered by that.
Evan Nappen 24:09
If anyone has a question as to how substantially similar type training is, how does that actually work? Where’s the proof of that? Let me just point out that there is the certificate of safe handling and proficiency in the use of handgun certification. That certification is a form on the State Police website that they put out in this interim and eventually is going to be the final rule. They put this out and there’s a certification form. What this certification form specifically says is that qualifications on a course of fire substantially similar to HQC2(modified). So, they’re specifically recognizing courses that were substantially similar, and WeShoot has put their course under that. So, keep that in mind. You should check and see where you got your original certifications done. If your trainer or certifier actually did a substantially similar course to HQC2(modified), then you have met the grade there and should be able to get a certification from your trainer that such has been met. So, that is something to keep in mind.
Evan Nappen 25:56
I would highly advise you to check out WeShoot, which is an indoor range in Lakewood. They are very convenient for folks in Monmouth and Ocean County. They have great training, top line training. I think it’s pretty evident by the folks that they trained here, are even trained to the new standards that haven’t even been at the time mandated for citizens. But they train their folks to such a level, which is why they never had any of their trained folks rejected or had their permits rejected for not having adequate training. This is the kind of quality that you get out of a WeShoot. So, check out weshootusa.com. That’s their website. You will be glad you did.
Evan Nappen 26:52
I also want to thank, of course, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are a sponsor, and they are litigating as we speak over these very issues. I’m sure that we will see action from them over this new outrageous promulgation of having to force every carry permit holder to be John Wick. That’s really pretty extreme here. Not needed. This is a fundamental right. We have the right to defend ourselves. The Association stands in defense of that right. They do it every day. They’re in the federal courts as we speak. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They are there defending us, defending you. You need to be a member of our state association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. anjrpc.org Join them and you will get fantastic news email alerts. As soon as this new training requirement came out, they sent out an alert about it. They’re on it. I am proud to be a member as well and helping the Association along. They do a great job, and they are the premier gun rights group in New Jersey.
Evan Nappen 28:15
Let me also take a moment here to shamelessly plug my book. My book is New Jersey Gun Law. The Bible of New Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all question and answer. I have a Page – 7 – of 9
very thorough explanation of carry permits and how to get yours amongst the other 190 topics. The greatest thing about this new book is the QR code on the front. Scan that to subscribe to our subscriber portal where you get alerts and updates. If you have subscribed, you will have received the update already on the new carry requirements. You will receive an explanation of who has to qualify, and you’ll have it in writing. You’ll have it in Q & A format to keep your book up to date. I get these out quickly so that you’re able to stay on top of it and know the law and it keeps the book current. So, if you’re interested in getting your copy of New Jersey Gun Law – 25th Anniversary Edition, just go to my website at EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book right there. Just click it and order a copy. Then get on that Subscriber Portal so you get all the updates for free. It is a free service. Something you should take advantage of. I have more for you when we come back from the break.
Speaker 3 30:01
For over 30 years Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six bestselling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.
Speaker 3 31:15
You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.
Evan Nappen 31:30
Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I’m trying to clarify some of these requirements that have come out and a lot of these questions that we’ve gotten. I’m looking at what the State Police promulgated, and I cannot get over how sloppy and unprofessional they put out the online course. This is supposed to be the online course for a carry permit, online course for carry permit for the firearm safety and awareness for the requirement under the law.
Evan Nappen 32:08
Go to the first page, the very first page of the PowerPoint presentation. Let me read you what it says folks. Remember, this is required for your carry permit. Ready? Here’s the title. You can see it for yourself. Go right to the State Police website. You’ll see it or go and look at the Gun Lawyer transcript. I have the link right there. Here’s what it says. New Jersey State Police Firearms Identification Card Safety and Awareness in current training. Isn’t that nice? They did a Firearms ID card for the carry permit. What the hell? I mean, come on. How about proofreading? You know, that would be pretty amazing, huh? But no, they were already late. So, it’s kind of obviously they were jamming it out as fast as they could. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Of course, when you look at what was put out in the Page – 8 – of 9
rest of it. But look, we’re going to have to deal with it. We got to get these training things in and done. You have got to do it. Here you see what they’ve done.
Evan Nappen 33:10
I have another important other question that really hits on this as well. This is from Marjorie. She says Evan, I believe you’re working on more detailed information about the new PTC requirements, which I am and have done. And I have a question that hasn’t been addressed anywhere yet. When I’m carrying concealed if the event arises that a law enforcement officer needs to see my PTC, how do they know whether my qualifications and training meet the new requirements? How do they know that? This is one of the first things I thought of when I saw the ANJRPC alert yesterday. She’s a member of ANJRPC, and that’s how she even thought to send me a question about this. Hopefully it will be addressed in future communications or maybe in a podcast.
Evan Nappen 33:59
I want to say that’s an excellent question. How does it work? If you don’t do the certification by October 1, what happens if you’re required to, and you don’t do it? Well, you know, what’s funny is the statute doesn’t speak to any type of penalty regarding that. Now, I’m not in any way telling you not to do this training, not telling you to do it. Because the way I see it is the requirement as to whether or not you’ve done it is on you to do. Then you should submit, frankly, that certification form that your Certified Trainer does for you that says you’ve met and qualified. You should really give that to your issuing authority. Do give a copy of that before October 1, 2023, to the issuing authority.
Evan Nappen 34:52
But how will the officer know that you’ve met the qualification and frankly, the officer won’t immediately know that. There’s no way to immediately know that. It’s not a database thing. They’re not going to know. But what happens is if they make inquiries, if they contact the issuing authority and want to know, did you have the training? Or what’s worse is what if you are in a righteous shoot, but the police are questioning you about this and maybe looking to bring charges, even though you’re the defender and not the victim. You’re righteous, but still you have to meet and present that it was lawful self-defense. Then they go and find out, hey, you did not meet the “safety training”. You didn’t recertify. Or what’s worse, what if you don’t do it, and there’s some type of accident with your gun? You know that they’re going to be investigating you. Then they find out you didn’t do it. Oh, boy, you’re going to be in a world of trouble.
Evan Nappen 34:55
Now, what I suspect is that many of these issuing authorities, especially the aggressive anti-gun chiefs, of which New Jersey has plenty, they’re probably going to check the folks who they issued licenses to and see if they have submitted the recertification if it was required. If it hasn’t been done by October 1, they can bring a motion to revoke your carry permit. The move to revoke that you are not within the law in your qualification, so they can move to revoke, really, at any time. And he personally can do that. So, you don’t want to set yourself up for revocation. Also, don’t just depend that the Chiefs may not care or do anything because I don’t put it past the Attorney General sending out a General Bulletin to all law enforcement to actually do that. To make sure that the carry permitees, that they in fact, did get the recertification if it was required. Page – 9 – of 9
Evan Nappen 36:58
I bet you’re going to see that, and if you don’t, then you’re going to face revocation. So, the bottom line is if you need to recertify, you need to meet the new training requirements. You are going to need to do this if you fall within those folks that are required under the law to do it. Now, maybe we’ll see some relief in litigation or something else along those lines, but you can’t necessarily rely on that. You need to take steps to protect yourself here. Make sure you meet these requirements and jump these hurdles to deal with these blockades that New Jersey tries to put up to discourage and stop us from exercising our constitutional rights. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.
Speaker 3 38:02
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.