Gun Lawyer Episode 111
new jersey, gun, explosive, law, bill, gun rights, suicide, fight, people, rights, gun owners, anti, evan, disenfranchise, buy, firearm, push, destructive, gun laws, means
Evan Nappen, Speaker 3
Evan Nappen 00:19
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I recently read a very interesting article, and then I’ve seen more information about it. About what is being pushed as the bipartisan voluntary gun ban. Before I get into that, I want to thank you all for being loyal listeners. I particularly want to thank our sponsor of the show, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC, which is the state NRA affiliate in New Jersey, fighting for our gun rights. In New Jersey, it’s vital that you belong to the Association, as we fondly call it. Now, this interesting push of this bill is a little bit of a twist on what is normally put forward. The idea behind this is to have a Federal law where you can voluntarily place yourself on a list so that you cannot buy a gun. (H.R. 8361 – “Preventing Suicide Through Voluntary Firearm Purchase Delay Act”) (https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8361/text?r=4&s=1) You literally impose a gun ban on yourself. This is an actual Federal bill that has some bipartisan support, and it is being pushed under the guise of suicide prevention. So, if somebody, in theory, knows that they are suicidal and that they themselves cannot trust themselves to not want to go out and buy a gun and off themselves, they can, in advance, put themselves on a list so that a gun cannot be sold to them. In other words, making themselves essentially NICS denied on the purchase when they go to buy.
Evan Nappen 02:34
Now, of course, the whole thing is absurd. First of all, the push on suicide and prevention of suicide is, on one hand, something any one of us can sympathize with. We don’t want to see people killing themselves. You want to see people not invoke what is called the “long term solution to short term problems”. And I get that. But, as usual, the anti-gun folks, the anti-Second Amendment folks, seize on anything they can seize upon. And here, they want to just make suicide about guns. They’ve pushed programs in the past and “the means matter”. In other words, go after guns to stop suicide. Now, even when you stop for a minute, if someone is bent on killing themselves, there’s only about 1000 ways to do it. A gun is one way, but are we going to also put yourself on the list so you can’t cross bridges? Are you going to put yourself on a list so you can’t buy rope or any kind of wire? Are you going to put yourself on a list so that you can’t run your car in your garage with the fumes? At what point can you stop these various means which is endless ways to kill yourself?
Evan Nappen 04:09 Page – 2 – of 7
Instead, they want to focus it on the gun because it becomes another mechanism to go after guns. They particularly love to push suicide in states and areas where the murder rates are low and gun ownership is high. Then they go, “well we got to prevent suicides” so we need to get gun control here because they can’t sell the crime theme. Although today it’s not so important even to sell any theme, I guess. Because, particularly in Jersey, they’re just coming straight out now and say, “we’re here to control you”. It’s not even about crime or anything, but in other places where they’re still trying to have some guise, a scheme, then suicide prevention is one of the things they will try to abuse. And so, we now see this bill, this bipartisan so-called bill, to create this registry that you can put yourself into. Now, good luck getting yourself out of this, should you ever do it. But put yourself into this so you bar yourself. I guess if you’re masochistic, too, this is a wonderful thing. You just can’t stand having all these rights. I wish there was a way I could just end the having rights, like the right to have guns. Maybe there should be a list, so I lose my right to free speech. Because who knows what I might say? Or lose my right to remain silent or lose my other right. It’s amazing to even think we’re going to set up a law so that you cannot ever invoke your rights in whatever right this law wants to focus on.
Evan Nappen 06:01
Even if we look at this and say, hey, you know what? This is really well intended. This bill is just pure of heart. This bill is there so that individuals, you know, and if it saves just one life, it’s worth it. You know, we’re going to hear that crap. I mean, you have one life, and it’s worth it. Except when we talk about carry and your ability to defend yourself where we are going to save many lives, that’s not worth it, of course. It’s never worth it. But anything else where we can take away liberty and get bans and it saves one life, well, that’s gotta be worth it. It can save a life. But again, if this is pure of heart, and really giving it all the best intention, the problem is, well, there’s a famous quote about good intentions. That’s what the road to hell is paved with. And why is that said in that way? Well, I’ll tell you. It’s simple. Because once you have, if you were ever to have, this law, that you can sign away your Second Amendment rights and never be able to buy a gun again. And it’s being done for this wonderful, noble, pure hearted reason of trying to stop suicide, who can argue with that? What will happen is you will see mega abuse, mega abuse, of this list, because once the mechanism is in place where individuals can take themselves out of ever being able to be a gun owner. Once that mechanism is there, then you’ll start seeing it employed in all kinds of other areas.
Evan Nappen 07:50
For example, in a civil suit, let’s say, where an individual is suing another, and they say we want you to give up your gun rights if you want to settle this. We want you on this list for whatever reason, maybe divorces. I want you to give up your gun rights. You need to sign. For you to visit your children, and I’m scared of guns. I don’t ever want you to have a gun. You need to get on this no gun buy list. The only way I’ll be satisfied and so you can see your kids. Or employment. Employers could say we’re not going to hire you unless we know that you will not possess guns. We want you on the gun list where you sign yourself in that you will not be able to buy a gun. That’s the only way we’re going to hire you because we don’t want anybody that could possibly own a gun working for us. Or even on criminal matters where you don’t lose gun rights like misdemeanors. You are offered a plea bargain, but there’s a catch. You can take the misdemeanor as opposed to the felony, but we want you on the no by gun list. That’s the only way we’re going to settle it. Page – 3 – of 7
Evan Nappen 09:07
So, once this is out there, then it becomes a tool of anti-gun disenfranchisement. And that’s always what they’re about. They’re always about disenfranchising us of our gun rights. And here’s another mechanism to do it. So, now they essentially sucker Republicans into supporting it under this, how could you be against trying to do something to stop suicide ploy? Then once it’s in place, oh, now we start seeing it get abused. And you say, well, how can you say that Evan and why? Because I’ve seen gun law after gun law that was supposed to be limited and so well intended, end up abused beyond belief. Where the law itself on its face, there are people debating it. Whether it should be law. Whether you should approve it. Vote for it. They all think it’s going to be reasonably interpreted and what happens? It becomes unreasonable. Just look at how in New Jersey, the disqualifier, “not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare”, is being abused by judges and issuing authorities to deny people for the dumbest, stupidest, most ridiculous reasons. But I’m sure when the law was being debated, and well, how could you want someone that would not be in the interest of public health, safety and welfare” to have a gun? Come on. Be reasonable. And what do we see? Abuse, abuse, abuse.
Evan Nappen 10:54
It’s always taking that inch and then making it a mile. This is like a constant sucker game, constantly fooling Republicans and other gun owners into giving up their rights. It seems like all they keep coming up with are new gambits. New gambits so you can disenfranchise more people. Hey, let’s ban those on the terrorist watch list. No one can be for terrorists. Except, how do you even get on or off the terrorist watchlist? Nobody knows. But sure. Sounds good. Hey, how about we limit just handguns? And then, of course, it’s no longer about handguns, because then it’s assault firearms. Then it’s why would you want that? Every day, some other new. Magazines that hold too many rounds are the problem. Every day, we got to keep salami tactics, salami tactics – take a slice, take a slice, take a slice. So, here’s their newest, most creative approach yet. Let’s see if we can get a law so that we can get individuals to voluntarily disenfranchise themselves and give up their right to keep and bear arms. I think we can find people that stupid, don’t you? So, here we are. Make sure you let your legislators know that you do not want to have any kind of law or mechanism on the books where individuals can voluntarily have their rights taken away from them, permanently. And then be abused and used and grow into some other monstrosity that has nothing to do with what it originally was sold on. Where there’s no limitations here. There never is, come on. Make sure you let them know that you’re not in favor of seeing this.
Evan Nappen 13:07
Plus, there are even just practical problems here. Even if someone’s on the list, how do you know if they’re on the list if it’s a private sale? How are you going to even know this? If someone’s on a no buy list, that just means they can’t buy from a dealer anyway. You tell me they can’t get a gun anywhere. Look, even with that, you can still get black powder firearms. There’s no dealer license. There’s no NICS check in most of the United States. Of course, if you buy it in New Jersey, they treat it as modern, but outside of New Jersey, it isn’t. You can still commit suicide just as easy with a black powder gun as you can with a smokeless powder gun. Then, of course, you still have every other means we’ve talked about. So, what it’s really about is, big surprise, gun control. Taking away rights, and figuring out the next scam, the next invention, to somehow keep accomplishing the goal of stealing our rights. Stay vigilant, folks, and make sure you really think about these things when you hear about them being proposed. They sound so reasonable and for such good cause. The more it’s like that, the more you Page – 4 – of 7
know to watch out. When we come back, I have an interesting letter here dealing with some fun stuff that goes boom.
Speaker 3 14:47
For over 30 years Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.
Speaker 3 16:01
You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.
Evan Nappen 16:08
You know this fight we’re in for our freedom, for our rights, is an amazing time. Really, right now. It’s an amazing time because the anti-gun movement is apparently just empowered and invigorated to try to take us down at every turn and to pass law after law despite the obvious unconstitutionality of these laws. We’re really getting to this apocalyptic battle coming up, particularly in New Jersey, where carry has been a goal for so long, for us to finally be able to get carry in New Jersey and not be victims anymore, but in fact defenders and to be able to have the most effective means to defend ourselves. And here, the antis after Bruen where we finally get rid of the block, the main obstacle, to a citizen, an honest citizen, getting a carry license, which is the old “justifiable need”. That was the anti-gun gambit of the past to make you have to show that you need to use deadly force before you need to use deadly force.
Evan Nappen 17:45
But with that being removed by the Bruen decision, what happens? Jersey comes back with the most egregious, most insane gun bill ever proposed. No exaggeration. It’s not hyperbole. Throwing everything at us but the kitchen sink, as the saying goes, to block individuals from carry. Sensitive places, mandating insurance, and adding all kinds of requirements and obstacles and burdens. Anything they can think of is jammed packed into this bill to somehow stop, admittedly to stop law-abiding citizens from having the right to defend themselves with the most effective means. This battle, though, has been a long time coming. We now are finally at the point where you know what, bring it on! Bring on this bill A4769 bill, bring it on. Put everything in it, as they say. Take your best shot. Because we’re going to take that best shot that you are throwing at us, and we are throwing back at you our best shot. We’re going to litigate this puppy, and you know what? We’re going to win. And when we win this one, that’s going to be the ultimate victory. Because they’ve tried it all in this bill. Once we crush them Page – 5 – of 7
here, once we destroy them in this bill, then we’ll finally have carry the way it should be. This is the final test. The final hurdle. I really believe that.
Evan Nappen 19:37
Look, I’m not saying the anti-gunners are going to stop trying to mess with us. Of course, they are. But once we have this victory of this magnitude over a bill this egregious and this atrocious, even if it takes this bill getting to the Supreme Court. This is the hurdle. This is the final one to really get our freedom established. And I’m glad that we got to this point. I’m amazed that we’re able to get to this point that we were able to get this. But in order for us to win, in order for us to fight this fight and have this battle, we have to have an organization behind us. We have to have forces on our side, ready immediately to bring this challenge, and to fight this glorious fight that we’re going to have. And I’m going to tell you right now, that’s why you need to belong to the sponsor of this show, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They will be there. They will be on the spot, like the Minutemen of the old days. They are going to be there seeking and litigating immediately when this law comes down. They will have the gun owners’ backs in New Jersey, and they’ll be in the glorious fight. We will see this battle unfold, and you need to be part of it. You need to be a member of the state Association. They have full-time paid lobbyists down in Trenton, and they keep you alert of everything going on in real time. They send out great alerts so that you can let the legislators in your area know, using the top computer programs and such through email that you can easily just push the button and it goes to the right people with the right message. It makes a difference. They have a fantastic newsletter, and it is our union of brothers and sisters in the fight for our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey. You must belong to this group if you believe in the Second Amendment and what it means and its effect, and how you want it to be a force in New Jersey. This is the primary group, folks. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC.
Evan Nappen 22:28
It’s going to be very exciting here. I mean, I know it sucks on one hand that we have to fight this fight and that these people on the other side are so idiotic, and stubborn, and just full of hate for us. I know. But you know what? We’re going to fight the good fight. And that’s what life’s about here. Life is always conflict and fighting. And here, the good guys can win it. ANJRPC is where you find the good guys right there, and you can be part of that. You need to be part of that. So, please, if you’re not a member of ANJRPC, you need to join today. (anjrpc.org) You’ll see what I mean. I wouldn’t steer you wrong. I’m a Life Member. Now, it’s critical. It’s the most important thing you can do in New Jersey fighting for your rights.
Evan Nappen 23:34
So, I got an interesting letter here to the Ask Evan section, which I always love to get. It says hi, Evan, I love your podcast. I’ve been a loyal listener from the first episode. Well, thank you very much, and I do appreciate that. Is it legal to possess Tannerite in New Jersey? Is the use of Tannerite legal in New Jersey? Does New Jersey have laws regarding other types of reactive or exploding targets? Thank you for all you do and for providing the 2A community with the information necessary to keep us in the good grace of the law. Regards, Lou. Well, thank you, Lou. That’s a really good question, and I know Tannerite can be a lot of fun. It is one of the great recreational uses of explosives that are out there. But the question is what is Tannerite? And is it legal in New Jersey? Page – 6 – of 7
Evan Nappen 24:44
Well, Tannerite is a brand name, and it’s a type of explosive that is made from ammonium nitrate, ammonium perchlorate, and powdered aluminum, which aren’t explosives on their own, but are explosive when they’re combined. When you shoot them with a high powered, high velocity round, it’s called a binary explosive, and when you do that, it goes boom. It is something where if you don’t mix it and you don’t hit it with that type of a round, then it’s safe and it won’t explode. But once it is mixed, then it can make some pretty impressive noise, smoke, and explosive bang. And so, it’s become very popular. I guess technically what you have is it comes essentially with an oxidizer is basically what’s going on. And once you mix it, then you shoot it. That’s where you can get that explosive to go. The question here is, is Tannerite, it’s sold a lot in the US, all different places, sold specifically for the purpose of shooting and making it go bang for fun at target shooting. What about in New Jersey, specifically? Here’s where you can have a number of concerns, which I’m sure you’re not surprised to learn about in New Jersey. First of all, there is an issue right off the bat with prohibited persons possessing Tannerite even under federal law. If you’re a convicted felon or someone who’s otherwise a prohibited person for guns, then you can also be a prohibited person for possession of explosive materials. So, that right away just federally does create an entire class of persons that should not have anything to do with Tannerite.
Evan Nappen 27:18
But assuming you’re not otherwise a prohibited person but simply someone who lives in New Jersey, which is very similar to being a prohibited person because you’re living in New Jersey and the laws are so strict, and most people say anything that’s fun in Jersey, they try to ban it. At least when it comes to the stuff we like. And unfortunately, Tannerite is no exception, at least in terms of the risk that you could face. The rub comes in New Jersey, specifically under what is going to be, and this is in theory where you could get charged if you’re using Tannerite. Now I know that it’s a little vague out there and some people use it and get away with it. I hear you, but if the government, if the state wants to go after you, is there something they could charge you with? Yes, there is and what they would charge you with is possession of a destructive device. That would be what most likely you would face.
Evan Nappen 28:35
Destructive devices under New Jersey’s firearm and weapons law is under NJS 2C:39-3.c. A destructive device is, in its definition, “. . . any device, instrument or object designed to explode or produce uncontrolled combustion, including any explosive or incendiary bomb, mine or grenade.” So, there’s a very broad stroke as to what a destructive device is. Now New Jersey even goes further and defines “Explosive” as well. New Jersey defines explosive under NJS2C:39-1. That’s where all the definitions are found. It’s under small letter e., and it says, “e. ‘Explosive’ means any chemical compound or mixture that is commonly used or possessed for the purpose of producing an explosion and which contains any oxidizing and combustible material or other ingredients in such proportions, quantities or packing that ignition by fire, by friction, by concussion or by detonation of any part of the compound or mixture may cause such a sudden generation of highly heated gases that the resultant gaseous pressures are capable of producing destructive effects on contiguous objects.”
Evan Nappen 30:13 Page – 7 – of 7
And that is pretty much what Tannerite does. We could have a battle of experts maybe trying to distinguish it out in some way. But essentially, it’s going to boil down to a jury question. It seems with the State doing demonstrations of Tannerite for the jury, and with what may have particularly happened in whatever the particular case where they’re charging that possession, I would have to advise against Tannerite in New Jersey. You can see based on destructive device and explosive and the definitions, how broad and encompassing they are. And unfortunately, you’re taking a risk. You’re taking a chance. As much fun as it is to have a target go boom, it’s not worth your getting involved in New Jersey’s criminal justice system. The harsh, extreme, draconian penalties that come along with it. Possession of destructive devices in New Jersey is a crime of the Third Degree. You are risking five years in state prison so that you can go bang at the target range, at the other end of the range other than your gun going bang.
Evan Nappen 31:33
So, you have to really be careful here. You need to be discreet and conservative. I love the idea of our freedom and not having to worry about these things. But unfortunately, I see every day what happens to good people in New Jersey. Good people that had no intention of getting involved in the criminal justice system; yet there they are. They are looking at having their futures destroyed, their families destroyed, their finances destroyed. Their hopes and dreams destroyed over New Jersey’s aggressive enforcement of its firearm and weapons laws. And I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of New Jersey’s gun laws. So, don’t give them the opportunity to victimize you. Play it smart. Again, I’d like to thank ANJRPC as our sponsor. Please make sure you’re a member. Join today. I want to remind you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.
Speaker 3 32:51
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by email at Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.